Posts by Sea Breeze

62

Do you know of any church that KNOWS God?

by the-MadJW in

i mean, the jws have many faults, as each of us have.. do you know any other group that does?.

Sea Breeze

My advice is to find a church with local governance:

Bible Churches

Baptist Churches

Non- Denominational Churches

Calvary Chapel Churches

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

So you see, the ransom was something that God required or demanded in order to satisfy his standard of justice so he could save mankind without offending his attribute of justice.

No, I don't see. The death penalty is what was demanded. It is the death penalty that satisfies the demands of Justice, not the ransom. "The wages of sin is death".

If you have ever broken any of the ten commandments, you are going to die and later be tried. You will be resurrected after the thousand year reign and will stand trial, fully resurrected in your own body. At this trial, you will be "judged by your deeds". Believers on the other hand will not be judged by their deeds, they are judged vicariously by the deeds of Jesus - "the just for the unjust" - "There is therefore NOW, no condemnation for those in Christ". Romans 8: 1

But we are all sure to face judgment:

"it is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgment". - Heb. 9: 27

There is a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous are "resurrected unto life and the unrighteous are resurrected unto damnation". Either way, the death penalty will be imposed either vicariously or personally as a just punishment for the sins you are guilty of (not Adam).

Adam had not excuse to sin but imperfect humans can argue as king David said in the Psalms, that they were born that way so on what just standard could God abandon mankind without demanding justice —that is to say, the ransom.

This is just twisted upside-down thinking, born from an unsaved and sociopathic mind. A mind with a 7th grade education who believed they were prophesied about in scripture and was appointed ruler over all the earth. This is where you got your theology. Russell was a madman who believed his own manure. The world knows all about Russell.

My bible says that man has no excuse: "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" - Romans 1: 20

In Job 41:11 we find God stating that He doesn’t owe anyone anything.

“Who has given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.”

It is like those infected with WT theology are under some sort of spell and are totally incapable of understanding the idea of grace and are innoculated against receiving it. God owes you nothing but death and condemnation.

I understand you have your own theology- that I totally disagree with-

You are hearing a clear presentation of the gospel that Christians are unified around, whether they are Calvinists, amillinialists or post tribulationists. This "ministry of reconciliation" started with the apostles and is preached unaltered by hundreds of millions of Christians. It is widely understood and firmly rooted in scripture as securely as anything can be.

The Russell gospel of: God owing us a ransom is a false gospel, designed to obscure God's offer of a "free gift" . How can you accept a free gift if it is owed to you as you describe? ... and you must receive it for it to become activated on your behalf:

"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." - 2 Cor. 5: 21

See, how the WT ranson doctrine is designed to steal your opportunity? You must RECEIVE the GIFT of righteousness. If God owes you something like the WT teaches, it is no longer a gift and you cannot receive a gift that is not there. Now can you see the WT steal?

Disconnect from the WT matrix and read your bible.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

@ Fisherman

Wow... where to start ? First of all, I am sympathetic to your WT indoctrination. I was a 4th generation JW and regular pioneer when I woke up. It took several years sitting in a decent bible-believing church to undo WT insanity. But here goes:

Legally speaking, as Alan F pointed out, how is it just for humanity to suffer and die after justice was served with the payment of the ransom.

First of all AlanF was just another unsaved XJW that had no grasp of Christinaity just like we all were at one time. There are actually three parts to humans. Soul, Body, and Spirit. Only the spirit is renewed and immortalized in man upon getting saved. This is characterized as a downpayment in scripture of the full restoratation to come pertaining to the other two parts - soul and body.

Secondly, a person must accept the death penalty payment on their behalf in order for the contract "for the forgivness of sins" to be ratified on their behalf. It's kinda like when you ask a girl out on a date. If she says no, you don't throw a fit, you eventually move on.

The physical effects of the antibiotics starting to work are felt during the millennium. Jesus resurrected the dead, restored people to good health is proof that the ransom works.

There are no resurrections described during the Millinium Reign. This is a total unbiblical WT fabrication. What scriptures can you point to the say this? None. The reality is that when unsaved people are resurrected, it is done at the END of the Thousand Year Reign. - "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

And, it is to face judgment at the Great White Throne, not to pet Panda bears like the WT deceives.

So to answer the question raised in the Topic, Jesus gave empirical evidence that the ransom works—for some people, the ones that were healed by Jesus. That is not really the issue that the ransom works.

The proof that we have is Jesus' resurrection. It is our guarantee along with his word since Jesus said that he would resurrect himself from the dead and then did it. This alone is the object of the Christian faith - Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. No other evidence is needed beyond this. If Jesus' was RAISED FROM THE DEAD, THEN OUR RESURRECTION IS JUST AS SECURE TOO.... if we agree to the terms.

The tension is that Adam sinned resulting in God demanding justice in the payment of a ransom

Wrong.... God demanded death as payment of sin - ours. God never demanded a ransom. That is just nuts. Where is that in scripture? God provided a ransom because Jesus (who was also God in his Spirit) said that he would do it. He specifically said that "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." John 10: 17

There is no legal imperative for God to save anyone. Salvation is a kindness... undeserved, unmerited and legally unnecessary. Your next breath is a gift from God, because his has a rule, the punishment of sin is death.

to him and since justice was served, what is the legal reason for humans to suffer so horribly and die ((and especially caused by Christianity instead of christianity at least mitigating human suffering). The application of the ransom is not a legal reason why humans are required to suffer and die when somebody else already did that for all humans, Jesus. Legally speaking, why is the ransom not working physically?— Playing devil’s advocate.

Didn't really make a lot of sense out of this statement. But, in a nutshell the Godward effect of Jesus, death, burial and resurrection is called propitiation. It means that God ruled that a VICARIOUS death penalty is acceptable to him and would be allowed to be applied in place of a sinner if he or she chooses.

The manward effect of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is called reconciliation. But no where is reconciliation said to save a person. It simply refers to its availability. In other words, man is now savable.

Jesus offers the actual contract "for forgivness of sins" in Mt. 26: 27-28. This is the contract that JW's reject at each memorial.

If a person does not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead and if they do not accept this contract "for the forgivness of sins", then both the legal concession (Propitiation) and the availability (Reconciliation) are moot.

What you are missing is the vicarious nature of the actual sacrifice "the just for the unjust" - 1 Peter 3: 18

You see Fisherman, Jesus didn't die to "buy back what Adam lost". That is way to general of a statement to understand anything meaningful. What happened is that Jesus actually "became sin"... just like when the ancient priests would place the sins of a person on an animal and slaughter the animal in place of the sinner.

The animal suffered the death penalty in place of the sinner. Remember when the priests would place the sins of the people on a goat and send it away into he wilderness to face certain death? That is what Jesus did for you. He want's to take your death penalty for you, in your place. Because he loves you and saw what a terrible predicament we are in. He want's to be your scape goat, if you'll place your sins on him.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 2: 21

See how we trade places with Jesus? That is the exchage.... if a person wants it. The WT tries everything they can to hide this simlpe and beautiful offer. It is a very generous offer.

39

Is Russia Bluffing?

by Fisherman in

“supplies of offensive weapons to the kyiv regime would lead to a global catastrophe,” state duma chairman vyacheslav volodin said.

“if washington and nato supply weapons that would be used for striking peaceful cities and making attempts to seize our territory as they threaten to do, it would trigger a retaliation with more powerful weapons.”.

what is russia implying?

Sea Breeze

invasions into other states such as Czech Republic (which is like Ukraine, divided into ethnic groups that really don’t care about their central overlords),

I regularly go to Czech Republic and don't understand this comment. Czechs very much care about their democratic government and are sick of this war. It has increased the price of most everything. There are no "overlords" there. They are not a fan of Russia I can assure you, them having occupied their country from 1968 to 1988. The feedback I am getting is that Zelensky is viewed as a narcissistic and crooked sleezeball. Many Ukrainians are in their country instead of staying and fighting for Zelensky.

No one is afraid of Russia invading Czech Republic from there that I am aware of. I talk with people from there every few weeks or so. Czechs believe this can be resolved diplomatically, but NATO keeps it going along with the USA by sending Zelensky hundreds of billions of $$$.

The West is getting scammed by Zelensky. Maybe its Zelensky dancing in high heels that compels NATO and the USA to flood him with money?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CDJejIZOgU

Anyway, the Czech's have a better understanding of the complexities of the war than western europe and especially the USA.

This is a good article on the situation.

29

Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K

by Sea Breeze in

what were we thinking?

mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.

Sea Breeze

All of those Whosoevers, does not change that. Salvation is more than going to heaven and Jesus knew that.

Rattigan,

Scripture says that we must be justified to be saved from wrath.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

But the WT says that only 144K are justified (declared righteous). In WT theology, how does those who are not declaed righteous saved from wrath?

The WT has never addressed this question; which is the most important question a person can ask a JW.

17

Jesus paid it ALL for YOU

by JW Answers in

sadly, jehovah's witnesses depend on their religion to save them, and the bible does not point to religion as a saving point for salvation.. the video message below shows from the bible that for salvation, jesus paid it all for you.. are you saved?.

Sea Breeze

Yes, Jesus paid it all.

Not only that, but Romans 4: 4 says that the more you try to work for your salvation, the more sin debt you are accumulating that must be accounted for on Judgment Day.

Rom 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Why is that? It would be like someone giving you the winning lottery ticket that they knew was worth 1.3 billion dollars. Then you say, "that's great.... let me help you with the cost on that... here's a dollar".

Or, in other words famously spoken:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me

32

The Hubris of the Governing Body

by cofty in

it's difficult to comprehend how arrogant the members of the governing body must be to sanction much of the content that appears in their literature.

they identify themselves as the 'faithful and discreet slave' - that alone requires an astonishing degree of pride.

but what is even more amazing - arguably to the level of insanity - is the way they then use that phrase to elevate themselves above the rest of the organisation.

Sea Breeze

Cofty,

Messiah figures are common and Christians are not at all surprised. Jesus' warned that these Messiah figures would (1) assume his authority & (2) would be preaching that the time has come.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

These two points perfectly fit the WT because (1) since the days of Russel they have been claiming to have Jesus' authority over all the earth (Christ's belongings) and (2) they have preached false dates saying the time draws near.

I have personally lived through two of these predictions, 1975 and the generation doctrine. But, there were several other dates before this.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

However, before AF article, the Knowledge book brought that point out pointing out that after the ransom was paid, God had the legal grounds to bring Armageddon back then in the 1st Century. But he didn’t.

Fisherman,

The idea that God brings about Aramgeddon to kill mankind like roaches is a WT fiction. (All people already die) The antichrist seated on a horse with a bow in Revelation is the one bringing about calamity on the earth. (Jesus fights with a sword from his mouth as the Word of God.)

God does allow this after the church is evuacated. After all, a lot of people really do not want Jesus as King. So, during the GT God allows them a taste of what they claim that they want, freedom from himself and access to unrestrained evil.

I believe untold millions will have a change of heart during this time - they are commonly referred to as tribulation saints in Christian circles.

But, Church Age Christians will be long gone by this time. "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" & "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord". 1 Thess.

Afterwards, Jesus shows up just in time to save Israel. The antichrist will be going beserk trying to destroy Israel. "Unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved".

Jesus is in the business of saving people, always has been.

It's all coming... just totally not the way the WT portrays.

29

Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K

by Sea Breeze in

what were we thinking?

mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .

which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.

Sea Breeze

Exceptions are implied in "all" or "everyone"

Can you provide an exampe?

Thanks.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

Sea Breeze

@Jerrro,

Most of the claims of being eyewitnesses of Jesus come from the ‘gospels’ (including Luke-Acts), all of which were anonymously written decades after the alleged events.

There are at least 5 lines of evidence that show very high probability that the earliest Christology is really the highest Christology. Using atheist scholars' own strict criteria, a person can be certain that the message of the death, burial, and resurrection was widely believed and preached upon prior to Paul leaving on his trip to Damascus (2-3 years after the cross)..... and probably just weeks or months afterward.

The "heresy" of this widespread high Christology that Paul kept hearing about was probably one of the main reasons he continued to hunt down Christians; he hated their message.

This video explains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMx1OikHC8U